Following the sage advice that MidnightFrost1701 gave me during a lengthy tangent in a recent thread, I logged into Netflix and looked up a 2011 documentary written and produced by William Shatner titled simply, The Captains. It is, as you might surmise, a retrospective on the lives of every person that has played the primary captain character in all of the Star Trek iterations, helpfully interrupted by endless pontificating from emceed by William Shatner.
(What? Of course this is a relevant topic for this blog. Dr. Leonard McCoy attended Ole Miss, and Georgia's playing the Fighting McCoy Bears today in basketball. So there!)
I have to admit that I went into the documentary with a skeptical eye... but I have a fondness for the absurd, and what I discovered was that this 96-minute film is a theatre of the absurd at its glorious height.
First of all, the real title of the film (as MidnightFrost1701 intimated) should really have been, "William Shatner interviews some people he probably doesn't even know, then struts around a Las Vegas Trek convention like the 81-year-old pimp that he is."
Hey, I know, brah... pimpin' ain't easy. (Via)
If you have the time and a Netflix subscription, I highly recommend that you go there now and watch this docu-drama, then come back and bask with me in its delightful glow. For those who don't have the time or means right now, however, I jotted down the following notes while I was watching:
General Observations and the Picard Chronicles
- I can truthfully say that, from beginning to end, this film has Shat all over it.
- Fun trivia time: Shatner got his break in Shakespearean acting as an understudy for a guy named Christopher Plummer. Plummer got sick one night, and the Shat got his big break. It just goes to show you that sometimes the understudy can have an even better career than whatever dude originally got the leading role. (Was that Plumber guy ever a naval officer in any good movies? Anyone? Anyone?)
- I really like that, in addition to the captains, Shat's production crew helpfully interviews the first officers from TNG and DS9 (Johnathan Frakes and Nana Visitor), but also helpfully leaves out Leonard Nimoy, who nobody really cares about anyway. (I also think Adrian Beltran from Voyager was out doing some baseball thing or something couldn't make it.)
- Here's a transcript of Shat's first interview excerpt with Patrick Stewart: "Hey, Patrick, listen to this 5 minute diatribe about how much I have changed people's lives with my great work! Oh, and you were awesome, too!" Stewart: "Yes, you were awesome, Shat. And I am only too happy to bask in your glory."
- What I love the most about this whole film is near the end, when Patrick Stewart practically leads the Shat around by a nose ring, and Shat laps every minute of it up. Stewart says he's ok with being known only as Capt. Picard in spite of all the other great work he's done, and Shat says, "Wow, you just made me reach that same epiphany, too!!" (Patrick Stewart then politely declined to remind Shatner that he hadn't done any great work since Star Trek. Or before. Or during.)
- Based on the face-to-face interactions between the two, it's obvious to me now that if Kirk were ever pitted against Picard, the latter would simply sit down with Kirk around a conference table, and within 30 minutes, Kirk would be sitting there drooling and staring in awe while Picard sawed the top of his head off Hannibal-style and started removing pieces of Kirk's brain and serving them back to him sauteed with shallots and olive oil. And Kirk would thank him for it.
Avery Brooks
- Dude. Every scene with Avery Brooks is like what a Jackson Pollock painting would be if it came to life. He definitely has some of teh crazie in him now.
- Most of the scenes with Brooks consist of Shat just sitting on the edge of the piano staring provocatively at Brooks, and Brooks just jazzing and crazying it up. I don't know if this is the case in real life, but the way they cut this documentary made him look just as out of his gourd as the "Apple Annie" old-lady hobo Shat interviewed on the streets of NYC.
- My favorite scene with Brooks was near the end. You see Shat trying to improvise along with Brooks as he plays the piano and sings... and then you realize in a stunning moment of clarity that Shat's the crazy one and Brooks is just stringing him along in a master stroke of playing off the original crazy with even more crazy.
Scott Bakula (I don't have to go in chronological order here, it's my review, dang it.)
- "Surreal" was one way to describe the experience of hearing Shat talk religion with Scott Bakula, that noted quantum theologian and master of the philosophical leap.
- And it might have been just me, but I thought Bakula went out of his way to say, "LOL QUANTUM LEAP, YOU KNOW THAT OTHER SUCCESSFUL SHOW I HAD," as much as possible.
- Also, gotta give props to Bakula for inadvertently saying (100% seriously) that the cast of Enterprise was complete shyte compared to the The Original Series cast. Thanks, cap!
Kate Mulgrew
- Mulgrew's story of trying to do the series while be a single mother at the same time was touching. It would have been more moving, though, if she hadn't just admitted that she neglected her kids completely and never saw them, to the point that her kids hated her for years and never watched a single episode of Voyager. (Ahhhh, treasured family moments.)
- It was hilarious when Kate Mulgrew asked Shat if he thought there was a life after death, and made it clear she wanted a serious answer. Shat responded by talking about chugging a cold beer after a hot workout and passing out. (Then he admitted that he was scared of death and just didn't want to think about it... which is probably why his portrayal of Kirk's death in Star Trek:Generations sucked so much.)
Christopher Pine
- His interview was genuinely interesting. As is usually the case when an older actor interviews a younger one, the differences in culture and mannerism are glaringly obvious. if you stand a Chris Pine (the real person) next to any of the previous actors who have played a captain, his "2010 Hollywood culture" mindset becomes very apparent. It's hard for me to put into words exactly what that means, other than to point you to the HBO series Entourage.
- In spite of the huge culture gap, Pine actually came across as very thoughtful and insightful when it came to the role of the "new Captain Kirk." He bantered with the Shat well, and generally carried himself professionally and made an excellent impression. (That is, when Shat wasn't forcing him to arm-wrestle him on the sidewalk in front of the Paramount Studios.)
So have you seen the documentary? If not, why not? And how crazy do you think Avery Brooks actually is? Crazier than William Shatner? Is such a thing even possible?
Discuss... and
Go Dawgs!
It is still smaller than Picard's head.
What next? Klingon officers on Enterprise? Not wearing handcuffs? I really hated next gen. Thanks for telling me that "The Captains’ is a pass though.
I hope the phasers are only set on stun tonight. The Fighting McCoy Bears? Really? What is that even?
CaptJackSparrow - January 21, 2012
My thoughts, in no particular order.
Perfect characterization, VD (woops, might want to avoid shortening your name)! I especially loved the many incarnations of “the most beautiful woman in Star Trek.” I wanted to be annoyed, but the old fool won me over in spite of myself. Also, the interview with the crazy hobo lady was either hysterical or borderline cruel. Either way, random.
Is Brooks really that crazy? I dunno. The years I saw him speak at Dragon-Con, he was definitely of a more…philosophical bent. One year right after Brooks left the stage, Garrett Wang (Voyager’s Harry Kim) did a great impression of him. He pointed out that Brooks can make just about anything sound deep, and then he recited the lyrics to “Row, Row, Row Your Boat” very slowly, with dramatic pauses sprinkled liberally throughout. He finally finished with another long pause, followed by, “you feel me?” It was bloody brilliant. However, Brooks wasn’t anywhere near as incomprehensible as in this interview. So maybe you’re right that he was hamming it up for the Shat’s sake. (That nickname is just pure win, btw. Pun intended, I take it? If the answer’s yes, duck. TKK might start swingin’ that banhammer for making crass jokes about revered Star Trek
blowhardsicons.)I was actually a little disappointed that Mulgrew was so serious in her interview. I’ve found that there are two general approaches actors take to the panels at conventions. The most common by far is for them to just sort of hang out and answer questions. Graciously and thoughtfully, of course, but they’re primarily reacting to the fans. Brooks is in this group. A minority of actors instead come prepared with a presentation, not unlike a standup comedy routine. They end up answering fewer questions, but I personally find this style way more entertaining. Mulgrew and Marina Sirtis (who surely needs no introduction here) both fall into this category, and both are simply hilarious. I would have liked to see a little more levity from Mulgrew, especially since she was talking to the Shat, of all people.
I know exactly what you mean about Chris Pine. For some reason I kept waiting for him to commit some sort of faux pas, and I was relieved when he didn’t. It’s been a few months since I saw the documentary, so take these observations with a grain of salt, but I seem to remember him seeming a little less…deliberate with his responses. A little more off the cuff than the others were. I could be totally making that up, though. I think the location of his interview was strange too. IIRC, the general public could walk right by, and it gave his scenes a very different vibe from those of the other actors. Also, it probably doesn’t help that we fans are going into his interview thinking of him as the new captain on the block.
I thoroughly enjoyed Stewart’s interview because I know very little about his personal life. I managed to miss seeing him speak the last time he came to Dragon-Con, and I’m still kicking myself for that. He’s slated to show up again this year, and I wouldn’t miss him if it meant skipping a panel with the entire cast of “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” plus Joss Whedon himself (ok, that’s a lie; I’d drop Stewart like Saban drops recruits to see the whole BTVS cast plus Whedon, but you get the point). For instance, I had no idea that Stewart had any children, and I wasn’t even sure if he’d been married. I don’t know how I’ve never Wikipedia’d him before… Also, I always kind of wondered if he was in the closet, but I guess I was misinterpreting his thorough Britishness. Anyway, he was just as thoughtful and articulate as I expected him to be, and yet he managed to come across to me as less self-absorbed than Brooks, Mulgrew, and the Shat. Agree or disagree?
MidnightFrost1701 - January 22, 2012
Oh yes... pun most definitely intended. :-)
Patrick Stewart is just, quite simply, the best actor ever to play a main Star Trek character. He had a notable non-sci-fi acting career before Trek, and he has had an even more notable non-sci-fi acting career after Trek. No other actor can say that.
He seems to me to be the consummate professional, gracious yet witty, and with an excellent sense of himself (without being over-inflated). And I know what you mean about making assumptions vis a vis his lifestyle choices. If you’d ever seen the Frasier episode where he plays a flamboyantly gay orchestra conductor, you’d have no doubt that he was gay. (Not that there’s anything wrong with that…)
But as you said, he’s not. He’s been married twice, has 2 children, and is still romantically linked with women half his age (as famous old men are wont to do). In fact, one of his real-life children played his adult son in the TNG episode “The Inner Light.” It’s one of the all-time most popular TNG episodes, and one of mine, as well. (That’s the episode where a centuries-old space probe latches on to Picard telepathically and forces him to live an entire adult life in the village of Ressik, which is on a dying planet. He has two children and learns to play the Ressikan flute, which becomes a recurring theme in a few subsequent episodes. The ending of the episode, with no music other than Picard playing the song he had written for his son on the flute, is considered one of the most unconventional in the entire series. It was certainly one of my favorite.)
vineyarddawg - January 22, 2012
I'm going to assume that you were explaining the plot of "The Inner Light"
for someone else’s benefit (although I had no idea that was Stewart’s son, of course). : ) I’m pretty familiar with TNG episode titles (DS9 and Voyager moderately so and Enterprise not much at all), and that one in particular is hard to miss. Although, to be honest, I never liked it as much as everyone else seems to. It’s a good episode, but I find it a little slow, and it’s not one that I like to watch repeatedly. I had a neighbor once who was a Trekkie, and he felt that way about DS9’s “Far Beyond the Stars.” We were each indignantly outraged at the other for not fully appreciating the brilliance of the episodes.
Are you familiar with the DVD collection called (I think), “Captain’s Log”? Fans were allowed to vote on the 2 best episodes for each captain, and they also let each actor choose their favorite ep for their character. The choices were pretty predictable except for Stewart, who chose “In Theory” because it was the first episode he directed. I find that kind of irritating because that wasn’t the point of the collection, and the episode is about Data rather than Picard. But otherwise, you may find it entertaining to try to guess which episodes were chosen and then go look it up. I totally called Mulgrew’s choice and got a few of the fan picks right as well.
MidnightFrost1701 - January 22, 2012
I figured you'd know the episode...
… but didn’t want to take any chances. :-)
I have not seen Captain’s Log, but it sounds interesting. I was a fan of Wil Wheaton’s blog back when he was still a computer geek (before he went “in exile,” if you know his blog history), and he always said that his favorite episode was “Final Mission,” because he got to work so closely and individually with Patrick Stewart. He also had some pretty interesting behind-the-scenes commentary on some of the season 1 episodes, which made them not-quite-so-horrible to watch.
“Far Beyond the Stars” was, IMO, an even better work than “The Inner Light.” The latter was great because you got to see Patrick Stewart flex his acting muscles, and you get to see what Picard might have been like in another time and another life. (Incidentally, the ability to “flex his acting muscles” is also why I like the two-part “Chain of Command” episode where Patrick Stewart gets to go one-on-one with David Warner’s Cardassian interrogator. Both actors are so awesome that they lift each other’s game, and it makes the scenes better than either one of them alone could do. “THERE! ARE! FOUR! LIGHTS!” The episode with Sarek where Picard goes through the whole gamut of human emotions during his mind-meld is another “flexing your muscles” example.)
“Far Beyond the Stars,” by contrast, is at its heart a tale that Gene Roddenberry himself would have told. You’ve already broken ground by having the first black captain/lead character, and the DS9 team took it a step farther by unapologetically juxtaposing that against a much more recent time in Earth’s history when such a thing was not only unusual; it was virtually unthinkable. Gene Roddenberry’s best stories did that, too: shining a light on an unpleasant part of our society that needed to be exposed, but doing it in a non-overbearing way. Showing how far the 24th-century Trek universe has come compared to the stark reality of 1940’s/50’s America could have been done in a way that makes us ashamed and bitter, but instead, it makes us want to be more like that utopian ideal. (At least, it did for me.)
(It’s kind of funny that DS9 had that episode arc, too, since the series as a whole was so dystopian compared to the other Trek canon.)
vineyarddawg - January 22, 2012
I love DS9 for its realism,
although I suppose it helps that I first saw DS9 as an adult through Netflix while I first saw TNG piecemeal as a kid. I guess I’m a nerd at heart (lower-case n, not upper-case), but what else would you expect from someone who enjoys writing Bulldog poetry? For the record, DS9 might be my favorite overall Trek series (as blasphemous as that may sound), but Picard will always be my favorite captain.
Cherokee's Grip - January 22, 2012
I liked DS9 for being darker as well.
It could be the writing, there just seemed to be times when their was some type of disconnect. Maybe it was the flip from something really hard to a more “filler” type show. I think the love relationships were just – annoying. And the baseball theme didn’t really work for me. But, overall, I was devoted to the show.
tankertoad - January 22, 2012
I guess Sisko had to have some sort of pastime to make himself unique.
But you’re right… they could have picked something other than baseball. Ben Sisko was born and raised in New Orleans, son of a restaurant owner. Yet, somehow he becomes interested in an old, slow, extinct Earth game that never played a professional game anywhere near the city of New Orleans.
That would be like somebody who grew up in Edinburgh, Scotland, becoming a huge fan of Cricket.
vineyarddawg - January 22, 2012
I know exactly where you're coming from.
Since I grew up with TNG, it will always hold a special place in my heart. For the same reasons, its bad episodes have more replay value for me than do the crappy eps of the other Treks (loved “Genesis” as a kid, for instance). However, I too finally checked out DS9 as an adult, and I find that its vision suits my personality quite a bit more.
This makes it impossible to pick a favorite. I believe the writing of DS9 S4-6 is the best; Janeway is my favorite captain if I ignore her first 3 seasons, but Picard is my favorite if I don’t; the DS9 cast is the most intriguing as a whole; Seven is my overall favorite character; and TNG has a significant nostalgia factor in its camp. Oh, and my favorite TNG movie is “First Contact,” and my favorite TOS movie is “The Voyage Home.” I don’t know what the ST:IV writers were smoking when they came up with that story, but the cast pulled it off just marvelously.
…Hey, what percentage of the Rumble Seat members do ya’ll think would get it if we trolled their blog with a “double dumbass on you”? My guess is 66.67%—the third one would be a hardcore Warsie who wants nothing to do with Trek on principle.
MidnightFrost1701 - January 23, 2012
Well, 7 was my favorite as well. )
tankertoad - January 23, 2012
[Insert good-natured eye roll smiley here]
I’m guessing not for the same reasons.
MidnightFrost1701 - January 23, 2012
Well, yea. However -
I think they should have cut her hair short and taken off the skin tight suit. Then we would really have a better look at that relationship you thought developed. The concept of 7 was a very good one. As with all ST series, you have the “what’s it like to be human” concept. Taking someone that was a human, trying to find out how to be one again, was a nice twist off from Spock, Data. But they definitely were pushing her sex appeal, and being in my 20s (mid to late), it worked.
tankertoad - January 23, 2012
Meh.
It would have been more realistic for her to at least wear sensible shoes instead of those heels. But otherwise, my general attitude is that if you’re blinded to the character within by all the “hawt,” then you’re precisely as shallow and immature as the producers assume you are, and you deserve to miss out on one of that show’s few successes in the writing. (That’s a generic “you,” Tank. I’m not saying you specifically don’t appreciate the character.)
MidnightFrost1701 - January 23, 2012
Oh - i hate the "meh".
And you are saying exactly what I am saying. I was never blinded by the hot, I just thought she was hot, which she was. But they could have used that in a way different way. Starbuck in BSG is an attractive lady, but she is also gritty.
Keep in mind, I watched everyone of these shows every week. No internet, no instant DVD releases back then. I am a true die hard.
tankertoad - January 23, 2012
He did not just call you shallow.
It’s a fact! Who knew Trek would spark such a response on this blog?
Cherokee's Grip - January 23, 2012
I think she's a she. But I totally love your response.
I am just waiting for a bama fan to show up and tell me I didnt actually like star trek. Then it gets heated and I get to banning.
tankertoad - January 23, 2012
I am indeed a she.
Also, since you mentioned your poetry earlier, you might find it interesting to know that my screen name is a reference to one of my favorite poems, Coleridge’s “Frost at Midnight.” If you’re not familiar with it, you should check it out. I’m sure I don’t need to explain the 1701 to this crowd…
MidnightFrost1701 - January 23, 2012
Nobody would mistake this for a Rumble Seat discussion
because we have multiple contributors—including ladies. As for my poetry, I’ll let you in on a little secret: I’m not particularly well-read; I just remember a few poems from high school/college English classes and research beyond those.
Cherokee's Grip - January 23, 2012
Well-read or not,
you co-opt great literature for the Dawg Sports agenda very, very well!
MidnightFrost1701 - January 23, 2012
That's a rec.
vineyarddawg - January 23, 2012
I know you hate "meh."
That’s why I said it. ; )
I’m not sure I’m totally following you, unless you’re saying that they should have “butched” Seven up (as you might guess from my observations about subtext below, some fans would enthusiastically agree with you). If that’s what you’re getting at, then I think I can get on board with it. She was a perfect character for exploring/undermining gender stereotypes the way Starbuck did. But the writers were clearly only willing to take that so far, for fear of losing those coveted young males (except for you, apparently).
MidnightFrost1701 - January 23, 2012
But the Borg believe skin-tight jumpsuits and heels are the most efficient way to...
… uh… yeah. Never mind.
vineyarddawg - January 23, 2012
"Chain of Command" is another ep that underwhelmed me.
But I was a child when I was watching TNG heavily, so I might be able to appreciate it more now. We didn’t know a lot about Cardassians yet, and I hated Jellico with the fire of a thousand suns.
My favorite TNG episode is “I, Borg,” which I think is Star Trek at its best. It raises serious moral questions but doesn’t beat us upside the head with the “right” answer. It also features a strong performance by Stewart, in which we see Picard’s biases and his eventual triumph over them. Plus, Guinan! I also have a soft spot for “Parallels,” which doesn’t seem to get much attention. I didn’t care about TNG-era Worf (he really came into his own on DS9), but the premise was fascinating (and not yet overdone). Seeing the alternate reality Riker who was desperate to escape his own universe was heartbreaking.
I’m totally re-watching “Far Beyond the Stars” tonight. They made the right call to include the entire cast rather than just the captain. Everyone got to “flex their acting muscles,” and it was fun figuring out who a couple of them were from just their voices.
MidnightFrost1701 - January 23, 2012
Well, classic your most underwhelmed is my most remembered. It could be because I am military, been to survival school, and worked in spec ops.
You werent supposed to like Jellico per say. The point is there are different leadership styles. Jerrico’s wasnt actually all wrong or bad, even good. Just different. I liked this point. It’s just everyone was used to “their way”. In a real military unit this is common, new leader, new rules. Ricker so vehemently going against Jerrico just aint how it would go down, and he would be kicked in the but.
Would you give it another shot? I think we got around a 10 year age diff. Its just two episodes. )
tankertoad - January 23, 2012
Sure.
Maybe not tonight, since I’m pretty jazzed about “Far Beyond the Stars.” But soon.
MidnightFrost1701 - January 23, 2012
coolio.
tankertoad - January 23, 2012
So I ended up watching it tonight after all.
Not that it ever takes much convincing to get me to watch Star Trek. I do like it better than I used to. I still wouldn’t call it one of my favorites, but the Jellico/Riker situation looks a little different now that I have some management experience of my own. Riker handled the transition rather poorly. Not changing the crew shifts from 3 to 4 in the beginning made a terrible first impression. Apparently no one ever advised him that, with a new boss, it’s wisest to keep his head down and his nose clean until he gets the lay of the land. However, I still think Jellico is (as my grandmother is fond of saying) an unadulterated ass. He’s even less likeable in the books, in fact.
Now, “Far Beyond the Stars” is a hell of an episode. I didn’t notice the soundtrack the first time around, but I love it (helps that I’m a bit of a jazz fan). There’s one line that I think really captures what good sci-fi can do: “Odo” is explaining to Bennie that he can’t publish a story about a black space captain because no one will find it “believable,” and “Quark” responds with, “and men from Mars are!?” And that meta speech at the end where Sisko muses that maybe he’s the dream and that there’s really a Bennie out there dreaming him up comes off far less tacky than scenes like that usually do. It completely drew me in. My only quibble is how long Bennie’s breakdown at the end lasts. I think they could have shortened that just a bit or at least changed up his dialogue a little. That’s a minor complaint, though. Overall, it’s splendid. It won’t dethrone “In the Pale Moonlight” as my favorite DS9 ep, but it might have just made leapt into second place.
MidnightFrost1701 - January 23, 2012
No "made" in the last sentence.
Thought I took that out before posting. Oops.
MidnightFrost1701 - January 23, 2012
To be honest, I don't even remember a lot about the Jellico/Riker/Troi scenes in "Chain of Command."
The scenes that make the entire episode what it is are the interrogation scenes with David Warner’s Cardassian character and Picard. David Warner is an amazing actor, and having him one-on-one on the same stage with Patrick Stewart was a recipe for magic, IMO.
The dialogue between the two characters, the nonverbal communication… it’s all spectacularly done. The tension is raised during those scenes to a level not seen in any other TNG episode that I recall, as one gets a realization that Picard is not just suffering physically… he’s fighting for his heart… his soul.
To me, all the Jellico crap is just a means to an end. Picard had to get in the interrogation chamber somehow… and they used that to get him there.
vineyarddawg - January 23, 2012
I focused on the Jellico plot because
it’s the one that most turned me off to the episode as a child. But I agree with you on the Picard/Madred scenes. I especially like the consistency in how the Cardassians are portrayed, both within this episode and on DS9. They’re aggressive, arrogant, and cruel but with an underlying insecurity (Dukat, anyone?). Also, fond of hearing themselves talk.
This is off topic a bit, but Garak is one of my favorite recurring guest stars in any Trek. I’d put him right up there with Lwaxana Troi.
MidnightFrost1701 - January 23, 2012
Sisko's speech at the end of "In the Pale Moonlight"
would make an excellent MNC victory speech. “I can live with it. [hoists crystal football] I can live with it…”
Cherokee's Grip - January 23, 2012
Certainly for The Chiz or Saban.
“… and the most damning thing is… I would do it all again.”
vineyarddawg - January 23, 2012
Ha! Rec'd.
MidnightFrost1701 - January 23, 2012
As for Brooks and Mulgrew...
… I think Brooks is just one of those academics now that kind of floats around (mentally) doing his thing. Nothing wrong with that… but you can definitely send off some of teh crazie vibes when you’re like that. :-)
Maybe it’s just how she seemed on this instance, but I think Mulgrew still has some bitterness towards her time on Voyager because it apparently cost her a lot in the way of her family relationships. (At least, she said it did.) As virtually every single one of the actors said during their interview, you have to set your priorities when you’re acting on Star Trek, and during the shooting season, your family simply cannot be your top priority because of the time commitments you must make to being on set. (Except for Bakula, apparently, who seemed to imply that he got some kind of a better deal.)
Patrick Stewart, for all his great acting, actually came out and said during his interview that his work always came first (and still does). That might make for great acting, but it doesn’t make for great familial relationships. And Mulgrew fairly pointed out that she was the first female captain, and since the captain is in pretty much every single episode, she never had any time off. And she was a single mother at that time, which has its own challenges. It sounded like she didn’t necessarily regret her time on Voyager, but she still had some lingering anger or bitterness that hasn’t been resolved, either.
vineyarddawg - January 22, 2012
It drives me crazy that I can read Dawg Sports at work
but can’t post. I feel like Charlie from “Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory,” peering longingly at the kids in the candy store. Stupid [REDACTED] corporate firewalls…
Anyhoo, before this interview, I’d never heard Mulgrew sound so bitter about her time on Voyager either. Your remarks started a train of thought that might have made a few stops had I not been unable to post from work. I’ll let you in on how I got where I am just so it doesn’t look like I’m threadjacking. In short, you got me thinking about how Mulgrew was publicly very unhappy with Jeri Ryan’s hiring (and Jennifer Lien’s firing), how she’s since apologized for the way she behaved during that time, how I therefore suspect she and Ryan weren’t exactly BFFs (at least at first), how that’s ironic given that they played off of each so well onscreen, and finally, how much attention the writers gave to the Janeway and Seven relationship (often to the detriment of other characters’ stories, such as Chakotay). I then started feeling mischievous and decided to just toss out something controversial that I hope might make at least one TOS fan foam at the mouth. Be it resolved: “The Janeway/Seven friendship was better developed and more interesting than Kirk/Spock.” I’m too lazy to lay out my case now. I’d rather wait and see if anyone thinks I’m off my rocker (for “literary society” alums, I’m really more a “second speech” kind of girl).
Vineyarddawg, since you’re re-watching S4, you’re in a good position to decide whether or not you agree with me as you progress through the show. I think their friendship started to really distinguish itself during the final scene of “The Omega Directive,” when they discuss spirituality. Interestingly, this is also the scene that started certain fans’ hunt for romantic subtext. I personally don’t think the writers ever intended it to be taken that way, even as a “wink, wink, nudge, nudge” thing. But given how many great bromances Trek has had (the aforementioned Kirk/Spock, Bashir/Garak, Picard/Riker, etc), I suppose it’s not surprising that the first really well developed friendship between two women would draw some attention (Crusher and Troi engaging in “girl talk” maybe once while they stretch or whatever does not count). If you find such things entertaining, you can amuse yourself by looking for the subtext and trying to figure out if it was intentional or not. I’ve heard that the actors joked about it on set, and there’s a scene at the end of “The Voyager Conspiracy” that’ll have you going, “oh, come on!” (Alas, this is one of only two interesting scenes in an otherwise asinine and forgettable episode, the other being the final scene with Janeway and Chakotay.)
MidnightFrost1701 - January 23, 2012
Smart phone?
I think part of the appeal to Voyager to me was the Battlestar connection of “trying to get home, everyone is out to get us, no one is going to help us”. At the time, I didnt know the greatest SCIFI series ever (that Kyle should watch but he is too lame) BSG 2 would come out of course. It’s a good basic premise. Voyager and DS9 gave us something that G Rod and the other shows wouldnt quite give – it’s probably scary as hell to be out in the middle of no where space with all sorts of problems coming at you all the time. The enterprise had a holodeck, families and trips back to earth, and even shore leave. Don’t get that on Voyager, and very little on DS9.
tankertoad - January 23, 2012
No cell phones allowed where I work. : (
It’s occurred to me fairly recently that BSG 2.0 was exactly what Voyager should have been. I do think that Voyager was too cushy under the circumstances. It seems like the writers were trying to straddle the line between TNG’s optimism and DS9’s pessimism (or, as I would prefer, “realism”). The thing is, they didn’t necessarily have to stick with a “happy” medium (I use scare quotes because I as a viewer didn’t find it very happy). The tone could have varied somewhat depending on the fortunes of the ship. And the fortunes of the ship should vary quite a bit. As it is, for the “gritty” we really only have “Year of Hell,” which got the reset button treatment at the end, and “Equinox,” which was a different crew. How ‘bout putting the crew through some stress tests that aren’t magically time traveled away at the end? Ugh, bitter Voyager fan here.
MidnightFrost1701 - January 23, 2012
"Year of Hell" = WOOOO TIME TRAVEL THAT NEVER HAPPENED
(Just for tankertoad’s sake.)
vineyarddawg - January 23, 2012
I just watched Omega Directive on Saturday...
… and I think it’s too soon to draw any conclusions. I need to keep watching some more episodes. :-)
I think the Voyager writers ultimately didn’t really have a vision of what they were trying to do with Seven of Nine. Some executive said, “Hey, we need to inject new blood into the series… I know, let’s get a hot chick and put her in spandex,” and the writers basically adapted to it.
(And while we’re complaining about it, the way they “captured” Seven is so friggin’ dumb. I mean, if you could do that to any Borg drone that had been assimilated when they were 6 years old or older and then gain access to basically all of the Borg’s knowledge and experience… why wouldn’t people all over the galaxy be doing it? Oh, right… humans have “some special thing” that allows them to elude the Borg and “flip them” back to being regular people while all of the other 8,000,000 humanoid races in the galaxy are apparently just too dumb to do that.)
Anyway, I guess it shouldn’t be surprising that it took them half a season just her settled in.
vineyarddawg - January 23, 2012
Guess we can't laugh at them for being Nerds
/hangsheadinshame
Mr. Sanchez - January 22, 2012
In our defense, . . .
. . . at least we have more than one person participating in this thread.
T Kyle King - January 22, 2012
Is it bad that I feel like having a conversation with myself in the Sunday open thread I posted?
Mr. Sanchez - January 22, 2012
If this thread
goes front page, I’m turning in my resignation;-)
DavetheDawg - January 22, 2012
(promotes thread to front page)
vineyarddawg - January 22, 2012
(not really)
vineyarddawg - January 22, 2012
I see you're trying to find a new EPL team to support
since yours is fighting off relegation.
Mr. Sanchez - January 22, 2012
Troll harder, bro.
Come back when you can get a point off Bolton and we’ll talk.
vineyarddawg - January 22, 2012
Please . . .
. . . don’t sully the dignity of a “Star Trek” thread with a soccer discussion.
T Kyle King - January 22, 2012
Table.
/dropsmicwalksaway
Mr. Sanchez - January 22, 2012
Table with extra leaves put in because company's coming.
(Seriously, I have no idea what “table” means.)
T Kyle King - January 22, 2012
equivalent of scoreboard
or when Carolina fans talk about how they should have won the East, replying “standings”.
Mr. Sanchez - January 22, 2012
Thanks.
So “table” is the soccer term for “standings,” then?
T Kyle King - January 22, 2012
yes
Mr. Sanchez - January 22, 2012
Much obliged.
I’m going to start using that ironically.
T Kyle King - January 22, 2012
Unfortunately, a Liverpool fan saying "table" to an Everton fan...
… is kind of like a Yankee fan saying “scoreboard” to the Kansas City Royals.
Liverpool has spent armored car-fuls more money than Everton has on players, so of course they’re going to be higher than the table.
vineyarddawg - January 22, 2012
There is a another thread for soccer. Let's keep this one properly geeked out. )
tankertoad - January 22, 2012
Want some cheese with that whine?
Mr. Sanchez - January 22, 2012
Want to win some points with that jab?
vineyarddawg - January 22, 2012
In accordance with Liverpool policy right now
I can not accept any points against weak competition.
Mr. Sanchez - January 22, 2012
WOOOO MERSEYSIDE NATIONAL CHAMPIONS PAAAAWWWWWLLLLL*
* – and Jooooooooohhhhhhnnnnnn, Geoooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggeeee, and Riiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnggggggoooooooo.
vineyarddawg - January 22, 2012
Not enough impossible to understand Scottish accent
Mr. Sanchez - January 23, 2012
Yeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaahhhhh
I’m a proud Trekkie and all, but let’s try to keep this under the radar, shall we? Just in case a Rumble Seat troll comes wandering by…
MidnightFrost1701 - January 23, 2012
If a Rumble Seat troll comes wandering by,
we can show him
or herhow to conduct a proper Star Trek conversation.Cherokee's Grip - January 23, 2012
I've been trying to figure out where to fit in in this convo.
I saw the tribute to William Shatner by William Shatner the night it aired. I liked it. I also found it kinda odd all in all. Between Avery James rambling on and Kate Mulgrew waxing about being the first woman Captain, I didnt know where to start feeling and thinking. Actors can be strange people and I think I just saw them being strange. I think Shatner was just confused at times and the whole life after death stuff – “huh?”
That being said, I have seen every single episode of every single Star Trek series ever. I religiously would cook brownies and watch TNG every sunday night. I watched DS9 and Voyager with as much devotion. Obviously I have seen all the movies and I found most of the TNG movies to be not that good. And although a way to jump start the movie franchise, I will tell you I am absolutely sick of time travel (and variants thereof).
Patrick Stewart with his well established acting was a guy that got his roll from the start and created a presence. Mulgrew got better but I am surprised she was baffled at the start. And the change in Kirk shoots or fights from the hip mentality to Picard calling people to his ready room for suggestions and then making a decision – loved it. Truly great leadership. And the Q episodes were always my favorite.
tankertoad - January 22, 2012
A couple of things just hit me to add:
I am the only person that likes the original motion picture the best.
I don’t remember the names of episodes for crap. However, the episode Chain of Command where Picard is tortured “THERE ARE 4 LIGHTS!” still sticks with me. Two part show. It was like a play and dark and real and intense. I guess a lot of people feel the same way as you can buy all kinds stuff with that printed on it. Riker got fired in those episodes, all kinds of stuff going on. Picard laughing at his torturer after picking his brain that the Cardassian was “still a little boy”, wow. And when Picard gets back to the Enterprise, they just show Troi and him going to his office without much dialogue to end the show – brilliant way to make a point without words. I felt like I needed to go talk with Troi after watching it. Oddly, the four lights is a reference to Orwell’s 1984. That’s a lot of stuff.
tankertoad - January 22, 2012
You must be mistaken.
There are five lights.
vineyarddawg - January 22, 2012
Picard tells Troi he thought he did see 5 lights for a moment. That was so chilling.
Such a statement on how brave Picard was through his torture, yet a statement the torture was breaking him.
tankertoad - January 22, 2012
Yeah, the time travel episodes are way too old.
It’s basically a crutch that is far too frequently overused to get something exciting to happen (like killing the captain or something like that).
I also get annoyed when a later generation of Trek series re-uses a TOS or TNG plot. (And that’s something TNG is guilty of themselves, particularly in season 1.)
vineyarddawg - January 22, 2012
I even consider Shatner being in the Nexus a time travel episode. It was a lame way to give the Shat one more chance to be in a movie.
tankertoad - January 22, 2012
No question.
It was cheap way to “hand off” the movie series to the TNG crew.
vineyarddawg - January 22, 2012
I heart the internet.
tankertoad - January 22, 2012
more love
tankertoad - January 22, 2012
All I have to say is . . .
. . . the “pimpin’ ain’t easy” caption should have read: “She’d hit that Shat.”
T Kyle King - January 22, 2012
Nice!
Gross… but clever.
vineyarddawg - January 22, 2012
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